059 - Overcoming Self-Doubt, Perfectionism, and the Illusion of Success with JJ DiGeronimo

John: You're listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development. To change your experience of life and work with every episode.

Tony: So tune in, grab your notebook, and let's go. Let's go.

John: Welcome to another episode of The Present Professional. Today, we have a special guest with us, JJ DiGeronimo, a two-time award-winning author who helps women raise their frequencies and empower their future impact through tried and tested strategies, mindfulness, and energetic practices. Formerly a leading woman in the tech industry, she now passionately strives to help women gain more seats at more tables by sharing her key findings to illuminate a path forward. Wow. Now, I don't know if you have anything to add to that introduction, JJ, but I'll let you take it from here. Powerful. Really glad to have you on the show.

JJ DiGeronimo: Oh, thank you both. I'm thrilled to be here. And I guess the only addition is I'm now a three-time award-winning author. That third book got the award that I was hoping. So I'm thrilled. Congratulations. Thank you.

John: All right, listeners. So we are here to talk about the three obstacles that high-impact professionals experience. And when we had our first introduction conversation with JJ, She introduced us to this concept of the oasis of success, and I was immediately intrigued and drawn into the conversation. I'm excited to start unpacking that first one with her, and then we'll get into the other two obstacles as the conversation progresses. Welcome to the show.

Tony: And JJ, we're excited to have you. Like John said, I think the Oasis of Success is just a perfect match for our present professional community. So can you start to kind of unpack what that means exactly when you say Oasis of Success? I mean, it seems like it can go in so many directions, but I want to know from a three-time award-winning author, what does the Oasis of Success mean?

JJ DiGeronimo: Well, thank you. This is not something I recognized until I was close to my 50th birthday. And I would say that for many of us, we have aspirations in our career in various disciplines. Some of us want to go up, some of us want to get on a board, some of us want to start something off the side of our desk. But what I've experienced not only in my career, but with many, many professionals is that we put that line out there. and we drive and we strive and we do and oftentimes when we get there or some representation of there we are already on to the next thing and i think for many of us the chase does not stop at least it didn't for me and many of the people that i've interviewed for all of my books and i think for many of us we eventually realize, maybe near 50, maybe near 60, that what we're striving and driving for isn't really filling us as we expected to do so. And I think for me, this happened, you know, kind of hit me square in the face and said, you know, no matter what you achieve, no matter what you do, unless you start working from the inside out, you're still going to have like this emptiness that so many of us are trying to fill by our title, by our salary, and even by our experiences and work milestones.

John: Wow. The one thing that really stood out to me there was working from the inside out. Can you give us an example of what that looks like or what that looked like in your career whenever you made that shift and started working from the inside out?

JJ DiGeronimo: Yeah, it's interesting because I didn't really know that's what I was doing. I would say that I have loved my career and I strived in every direction as many of us do when we're trying to figure it out. I mean, Sheryl Sandberg often says that it is a monkey gym, you know, where you're jumping on this rail and then you're going to the left and then you're up and then you're down. And so many of us are like, what about lateral moves? And I think for many of us, we don't recognize that every time we strive, that we're trying to sort of feel more whole. And I think for many professionals that are 50, 60, and even 70, they often say, yes, that was really great. I enjoyed my career, but here are the things I really love to do. And it's often those things that are happening off the side of your desk, things that you're doing with a nonprofit you love, something you're doing with family members or in your community, or something that you're doing that really just, maybe you're starting something from scratch. And I think for many of us, when we recognize that striving and driving isn't really filling our bucket, we often have kind of an awakening, a moment, some call it a midlife crisis. We're like, this isn't working, or why don't I feel the way I thought I was gonna feel? And so I think for many of us that are striving for success, success, as you mentioned, Tony, earlier, can be anything. really. And I think really kind of moving back into ourselves and being like, all right, what energizes me? What makes me excited? What problems do I want to solve? Which could be very different than the job you're in. And many people work off the side of their desk to fill their bucket while they're still striving at work, but they're not putting so much effort or such a high price tag on that next milestone.

Tony: Wow. I think that's extremely powerful. I think that kind of what I'm hearing too is like almost diving into the power of stillness a little bit as you're kind of jumping in that monkey gym, recognizing that maybe you should be on this one exercise machine a little longer so you can really strengthen that one muscle or really dive a little deeper into what you're doing. So, I just appreciate the concept and I'm sure our listeners do too. John, I'll pass it back to you in case you had any follow-up question of that because I think that was extremely powerful.

John: You know, I think that with the process of slowing down and I think it was the questions that you were asking yourself, JJ. What excites me? What interests me? What comes naturally to me? Like some of those self-discovery questions was what I was hearing started to kind of pull out the tangible pieces of what working from the inside out really meant for you. So with that in mind, so say if it wasn't the awakening moment from, you know, 50 60 for any folks that have to kind of run into it, not accidentally, but whenever the time is right, in their lives. So if you were to go back and tell your 25, 30, 35 year old self something, you know, maybe to start working from the inside out or to start this discovery process, what would you give yourself?

JJ DiGeronimo: Easy. This is easy because luckily, you know, I ended up having a guide or someone in your life that kind of pushes you in a direction when you don't know that you need it, but it ends up kind of landing you in a place that kind of gives you your next download or your next important key of information. And I ended up going to a mindfulness class after a lot of pressure from some people in my network. And what I realized is one, I was completely impatient. Two, I was so busy driving towards my goal, which as an A plus player in the sense of like high energy, just get it done kind of mentality, very masculine energy. I was so much living in the future of where I was going and what I was doing. And I really was not in the present moment. And it sounds so goofy to say that because I think a lot of people say, well, I'm in the present moment, I'm here, but really are you? And I think for me, I had to like learn not only in the eight week course I was in, but I had to continue to learn how to be in the present moment because I lost my joy. I had no joy. I had all these milestones and accolades, but I had no joy. And I had no joy because I was never in the present moment. I was always in my head preparing, designing, creating, or I was thinking about that last meeting, that last comment, that last 360 review. And when you're not in the current moment, you don't see all the beautiful things that you're creating, all the energy that is coming towards you or the momentum that you may have really mustered up over all the hours of work you've put in. I really had to train myself to be in the present moment, not grinding in my head, which actually created a lot of success for me. I really had to unlearn that to accelerate my place and my work in the world.

John: Stepping out of the oasis.

JJ DiGeronimo: Yeah, because it's really just a carrot. I mean, that constantly moves. I mean, that next job, that next salary, that next club trip is not going to make you any happier than you are right now.

John: And I'm hearing that like living for some future that's not here and now. So then when you get there, you know, how will you know how that feels? Because you'll be living for some other future. Now listeners, you know, we always come back to this, the very first episode, starting with self-awareness. You've heard all of our similar journeys and stories. Yours was a mindfulness class. Mine was a yoga class that ended up in 500 hours of yoga teacher training that I would say was my pause. Oh, maybe this isn't working for me moment. Tony had his same pause. Wait, what do I really want to do with this moment? It's just it's beautiful to see what that was the catalyst to this transformation. So I just want to double down on. how often we talk about self-awareness, why this is called the present professional. It's about stepping into the moment and understanding these things about yourself and experiencing day to day, the beauties of our own journeys.

Tony: And I think that when we have these conversations, it always comes up at some point where we say, what about the person that says no? I need the accolades to fill me up. I need the carrot to drive me. That's my motivator. What do you say, JJ, to people that you meet that just, they hear you? but they just don't fully get it. You can see it on them or you've heard someone describe them and it's still very clear that they need the mindfulness practice because you've been there yourself. What do you say to that person that still needs that breakthrough conversation or that breakthrough self-awareness or mirror for them to truly get it and start to walk down that path?

JJ DiGeronimo: Great question. And as you know, with all your work, I mean, you can't push people along on their journey if they're not ready. So if you're listening, being like, that really works for me, then keep doing it. But I guarantee you, you will have an awakening moment. Something will happen that will shake you at a level that is undeniable, that you will know you have to do things differently.

John: Now, wrapping up this oasis of success, it sounded like you described it as this place that we feel like this is what should make us happy. What everyone has told us and what the systems have told us should bring us this happiness, but then it's, you know, this awakening moment or finding self-awareness that helps us, you know, step out of this perceived oasis and into the oasis, which is actually the present moment. More heart-centered, gut-centered than just thinking about logically, what's my next step? Does that help kind of summarize everything for the listeners on the oasis of success? What did I leave out JJ?

JJ DiGeronimo: Well, I definitely think you summarized it perfectly. I think we really just need to step back and be like, what am I driving towards? How does it make me feel? And what void or hole am I trying to fill? Because I feel like many of us define and drive towards certain levels of success because of someone or something. And you know, that often comes up. you know, in our childhood. I was watching that video, I'm Not Your Guru on Netflix, Tony Robbins. And he said, you know, what parent did you want the most love from? And what did you have to do to get it? So oftentimes we're driving and striving to fill a void. And I think for many of us, that can be profound and others that could be like, yeah, of course, you know, like that's how, you know, my dad wanted me to be successful. And he only really gave me attention when I got A's. You know, whatever it is, it doesn't matter what the story is or what the experience is, but just recognizing why you're driving the way you're driving and what are you trying to either avoid or fill.

John: from outside in to inside out. I love it. Now, obstacle number two, self-doubt. Something that I see a lot in my coaching clients, that I see a lot in my own life whenever I approach something that feels outside of my comfort zone in the past, and something personally that I've trained myself to move toward. is anywhere where I feel like I'm doubting myself or I'm feeling strong resistance come up, I've trained myself to believe that the biggest win is always on the other side of that. And that's what's helped me personally work with self-doubt and resistance. But I want to give you an opportunity to define that for our listeners.

JJ DiGeronimo: Well, it's interesting because I didn't even realize how much self-doubt I had until I practiced mindfulness. And I feel like self-doubt and any of the energy that comes from your ego, which is really what comes with your body, is there to protect us. So I feel like a lot of times we live in this protection mechanism of fear, self-doubt, anxiety, worry. And you have to learn how to shift out of that energy because that is like the innate place that many of us live. And without practical tools and strategies, we often live in that space, which drives so many of us. Like I'm afraid to look silly at work, or I don't want my coworkers to think that I don't know what I'm doing, or I don't want to lose my job. You know, those could be clear motivators, but honestly, what I've learned through all the work that I've done is that shifting over to more abundance gratitude impact is a much healthier place to live and you actually are more impactful in that space because you're living from a place of abundance rather than a place of fear.

John: Wow. Now, it sounds like another major shift there from the innate place of fear. I call it self-preservation. And we come into the world based on some loss of holding that we experience in childhood and the strategy that we develop to Maintain safety, psychological safety. Sometimes when I'm working with clients now, we work with something called honoring and integrating your fears. With self-doubt, I feel like it is, like you mentioned, wrapped up in fear. Yet at one point, that fear was there to serve us, right? Like you mentioned, it was there to protect us. So it's, you know, in what ways can clients, can our listeners start to integrate their fears, set them down beside us and say, it's okay, I'll take it from here and then move forward with, you know, faith over fear or doubt. So how do you help people take that step?

JJ DiGeronimo: Well, I would tell them for sure to start practicing mindfulness. For me, that really was the key because what mindfulness did for me, and I studied one of Jon Kabat-Zinn's eight-week course, what it did is it gave me space between my thoughts. So instead of me thinking I was my thoughts, it actually allowed me to sort of back up and watch my thoughts like a conveyor belt go through my head. And that was pretty insightful because I didn't even know what I was thinking all the time or how that drove my actions. And I feel like I was much more aware of the stories once I was able to see how I talk to myself on a regular basis. And I have done and talked to many people about this. And I would say most of us do not have stories on repeat that are positive, that are supportive, or helpful. So having that perspective of just watching those stories go by in the conveyor belt and deciding which ones you want to hang on to and which ones you want to let go. And that often requires us to dig through where the origin of those stories came from.

Tony: Wow. Yeah, I think that's so spot on. And I could dig even deeper into the self-doubt piece just to ask more questions because I definitely want to know more about your transformation. But I want to pivot just a little bit and talk about the third obstacle. which is perfectionism. And I mean, I feel like most high achievers probably struggle with that a bit because that's your carrot, right? That's your goal is whatever you visualize is perfect. But how does that come into play? We talked about oasis of success. We talked about self-doubt and what that does. And then with perfectionism, how does that third obstacle kind of encapsulate all three? How do all three work together for you to still drill down and make mindfulness the root medicine for these three obstacles. How does it work, JJ?

JJ DiGeronimo: Well, it's interesting because this isn't like something I thought I would write about, but much of my third book are the obstacles that prevent us from leaning into what is calling us. And what I noticed, I've spoken to tens of thousands of women across the world in business, and I can give them the strategies to get promoted. I can get them the strategies to get on boards or find sponsors. But if we don't get a handle on our self-talk, it's almost inevitable that you're not going to make the momentum or accelerate your career in the direction you desire. You really have to go deep and understand kind of why are you where you're at now. And many of them come to the books and the events when they're at a standstill. And I think perfectionism is such an interesting topic and one that is the longest chapter in my book, Seeking, because it's something that I've struggled with. It's something that most of the women that are in my network struggle with. And it's funny because I used to pride myself on saying, oh, I'm a perfectionist, as though it was like, I work so hard and I cover every corner and I dot every I and I get everything done. But in reality, in my research, perfectionism is really a hiding mechanism.

John: hiding from the delivery and the potential for it not to be perfect. So it's really hiding from the fear of failure or what else would folks be hiding from with perfectionism?

JJ DiGeronimo: Oh my gosh, a ton of things, a ton of things. Like I've had someone tell me like in third grade, you know, they didn't get all the answers right. And their teacher called their parents. I mean, they're hiding from that embarrassment. They're hiding from people not like seeing them as a top performer. They're hiding from the fact that they don't know all the steps. They're hiding from the fact that they want to be seen as an equal, especially for women in STEM-based careers. You know, perfectionism is a tool to make sure that people see you as like this top dog deliverer. But in reality, if you pull back all the layers, it really is based in fear.

John: Wow. Now, you mentioned something as we were transitioning from self-doubt about the stories we tell ourselves. And I thought one thing that was really powerful that listeners can take on is deciding. It's like through mindfulness and through seeing your thoughts objectively, that you're then able to decide what you said, which ones you want to keep, which ones you want to let go of and new ones that you want to write. Now, what stories do you feel folks have to let go of or rewrite in order to move beyond self doubt, perfectionism, right? To start living that more heart centered inner to outward type life.

JJ DiGeronimo: Yeah, it's interesting because I've had to take on new strategies of how I go about things. In fact, you know, I often follow Jen's and Sarah's advice and you're a badass. She often talks to herself and says, let me see what I can do. So instead of saying like, I need to start this, develop it, get it to this level, get these people on the nonprofit board, deliver this type of value. She says, let me just see what I can do. And that's been a really helpful strategy for me because it doesn't align any expectations. And I think for me, it's hard to get rid of the stories. I mean, Brene Brown helps us all the time do that. But the reality is, it's like when you are in the heat of the moment, I have to use strategies that just allow me to just get that next step done. And even though I've been working on my stories for a long time, still pop up it's not like you can just clear your peripheral of all the things that brought you to this point so i have to use strategies that just get me to that next step and when i say let me see what i can do that means like can i make a phone call can i do some research can i write that chapter even write an article. Because for me, it's just about making that next step happen without assigning so much pressure on myself. And so many of us sit on the sidelines because we think we have to have it all figured out before we move forward. And in reality, oftentimes you're moving forward on things you've never done before. So the idea of having it all figured out is daunting and often debilitating. And so many of us continue to sit on the sidelines being like, okay, well, when I have time to have it all figured out, I can get in the game. And my advice is just get in the game and touch the ball. Like just get in the game. Like don't wait to be perfect. Don't wait because you have doubt of failure. Just see what you can do. Because oftentimes the universe will deliver something to you that you couldn't even imagine to help you facilitate even that next step and that next step. But the universe is waiting for you to lean into what is calling you. And if you're sitting on the sidelines, like in a bathtub of self-doubt, I assure you the universe is not going to give you that next step.

Tony: Wow. Let me see what I can do. That needs to be the mantra for someone this weekend, right? Go into the weekend, like, let me see what I can do and see what Monday brings. I wanted to ask you, so when you have that let me see what I can do mindset and you're trying things and you kind of start to move perfectionism to the side a little bit, how do you use failure as a motivation? Because when you have the let me see what I can do mindset, you will sometimes fail, right? Like, that's a part of it. But how does one use that as a fuel to still get them to where they want to get to or to continue to drive forward?

JJ DiGeronimo: Yeah, I say collect your no's. Collect your no's. Every no is closer to a yes. Just collect your no's. And honestly, I feel like I've collected my no's for so long now that I just know the universe has another plan for me. So even on this third book, Seeking, I pitched it to six publishing houses and all six said no. And I put it on my shelf for about three months. And then I started having people ask me questions of topics that were in the book. And I'm like, well, that's a sign. If people are asking me really specific questions on topics that are in the book, I need to pull this book back out. And it was funny because one, I could have never written the book the way I did because I wasn't ready at the time I pitched it to write this book. Two, it's a mix of business and spirituality and alignment. And a lot of places don't know where to put that in categories. So I feel like I had to pave my own path, which is now creating a path for me to pave the way for other authors. And three, I could have never gotten the cover done or the way the layout is because that's not standard publishing. So I feel like all those no's were gifts for me to create something that really aligned with the message and the workbook style that I want to share to help people get on the other side of this self-doubt and fear. And I use that in many more examples in my life. I'm saying, you know, these no's were actually gifts for me because had I gone down the traditional path or done it the way I thought I should, I would never be in the place that I am now. And I'm sure you guys can relate to that.

John: There's always something. It's a byproduct of being on the field over being in the stands. And the more no's that you collect, I've found the more no's that I collect, the less impact a no has on my psyche and on my momentum moving forward. It's because then whenever there's a yes, it's almost like the product of just like always being there and that consistency, like fishing with dynamite. And it's a principle of my life is incrementalism and doing just a little bit every day. And I've talked about this and it's coming towards the end of the year and it's something that I've done every year for a little over a decade now. And it's a full year in view dry erase calendar. And I set out a goal for things I want to do incrementally each day. And every day that I say, you know, write for 30 minutes a day, I put a slash mark on that day. And as I see the slash marks build over the year, I'm less and less likely to skip a day. And everything that I've put on that board has manifested into something in some way over the years, right? So that's the way that I look at it. is being on the field, being consistent, and just stepping out there anyway. So whatever listener that you're striving to attain, that you're striving to become, It's like even if you're just doing a little bit each day, just keeping that in your consciousness and keeping that in your focus is going to bring some of the things that JJ is talking about from the universe into your orbit. Now, that's my tool for incrementalism. JJ, what tools or regular practices do you recommend for listeners to start living this life, to start living from the inside out?

JJ DiGeronimo: I just put it in my calendar and I won't dismiss it until I do it. It's just a real mind game. I'm not dismissing it until I do it. Honestly, it doesn't have to be hard. It could be just researching people on LinkedIn. It could be making a couple of phone calls. It could be finding people that are doing what you aspire to do, whether that is the next step in your career, a nonprofit you want to create, a board that you're on. It doesn't matter what it is for you, but you are here with really unique gifts. And you often get whispers of what you should be working on or what you should be leaning into. But many of us hear those, as I do, and say, oh gosh, not me. Not me. Not me. No, I could never do that. And this has happened consistently for every milestone I've had over the last 15 years, that my first response is, no way, not me. And the first whisper of starting a women's group in tech took me two years to manifest. My first book took me three years to manifest. My retreats I do for women took me two years to manifest. And now my spiritual community of lightworkers took me one year, which I see as a huge accomplishment because I am cutting my time down because now I'm saying, okay, what do you want me to do? All right, I'll do this work. But each step of the way, my first response is not me. I'm not equipped. I'm going to look ridiculous. How could I ever do this? And I have had to learn to just really believe that the messages and the whispers that are coming to me that we could talk about a whole nother time, but it's basically what is guiding you and what are you, what's inspiring you and how are you bringing more of that into your life?

John: And how do you start to hear those whispers?

JJ DiGeronimo: I mean, you have to be quiet. You can't be in your head grinding all the time. You know, when I started to actually participate in mindfulness and be in the present moment, I get messages from people. Oftentimes I get messages from things I see. And sometimes I just get a thought that's very clear that is not my thought. Like when I was, I was in, I was coming off of a stage in Seattle and the message was, you know, bring, it was a thought, bring the, bring the women outside. I was in a huge conference center, like bring the women outside. Like, what the heck does that mean? No, I mean, I can't, they're going to their next session. Like, and I kept coming to me, bring the women outside. And I was like, I. And I remember being on a bus in Denver, on the airport bus to the rental car. And I was looking at the mountains and I got it again, bring the women outside. And I finally scheduled a session with a woman, a spiritual guide, Dora. And I'm like, Dora, I keep getting this message. And she's like, what does it mean? And I told her, I knew exactly what it meant when she asked me, like, I need to create retreats for professional women outside so they can reconnect with nature. They can remember why they're here. They can ground into the energy that the universe provides us. She's like, well, why aren't you doing it? I'm like, well, what if I fail? And she's like, but what if you don't? And what if you create a day that you want to go to so that if nobody shows up, it's a self-care day for you. So I think that mind shift of kind of what your expectations are about what you're doing is so important to lean into what is calling you. I use a lot of spiritual practitioners and energy practitioners to help me get on the other side of my self-talk because it is brutal and I feel like I need that extra help and I share a lot of those people with people within the book and in my community because I feel like it's so important for people to get that little bit of help You know, we do 360 reviews, we do annual reviews, we do all these things, Myers-Briggs. But like, what about evening that out with some feminine energy and maybe doing your human design or Enneagram or birth charts or, you know, numerology? Like, why not? It's just information. So just check it out just so I can round out maybe some of the information you're working with. Wow.

Tony: Wow. Yeah. Bring the women outside.

John: one message that led to a whole different vertical of your business and practice. I love the way that you articulated it when it shifted to, what if it does work? And making it as simple as possible. One of my themes right now is simplicity. My messaging, business, how can I make things simpler? And the way that you simplified that with, let me create a day that I can just go to for myself. And if I'm going to enjoy it, then likely other people will enjoy it with me. Talk about a relief of pressure as opposed to, I need to create a space for these women to have a life changing experience. What? It's just a complete different energy. So thank you for sharing that tool. It's simplifying, finding the easiest route for your mind to be able to take the next step, to create what you want to create.

JJ DiGeronimo: And I'll just say with that, like I just had my 14th retreat this couple months ago and the universe has delivered over the last two years is amazing place to gather like beyond what I could ever imagine, which would have never happened if I didn't lean into the whisper.

John: Wow, it just showed up for you. Now, kind of making our way through these three obstacles, oasis of success, self-doubt, perfectionism, all of them being patterns that help to keep us safe, help to keep us comfortable in a path that we know. So I'd say that another theme that I'm picking up from this episode is really what's on the other side. of all three of those. And that's what it takes from moving from the inside out to move not beyond those three obstacles in a way where they'll no longer exist for you, but it's a way of changing our association with them, changing the way that they impact our energy and being able to move forward in the face of all three, seeing them for what they are. And then finding these little nuanced paths, like changing the story about the retreat to just step into the work that you want to do. So what would be your final thoughts to leave our listeners for them to step into the work that they want to do to step into their heart centered work? What would be your final thoughts for them?

JJ DiGeronimo: Well, there's only one of you and that you come with really specific gifts, really specific talents. You may already know what those are. And I would just encourage you to really pay attention to what is trying to get your attention. Are you plowing through life? Are you so busy that you're not in the present moment? Because many of these messages, insights, and wisdom come when you can be present. And if you need to take a mindfulness class or really spend some time just investing in yourself, it's worth it because your life is long. You've got a lot more, probably a lot more time in why you're going to be and how you're going to be on the planet. That making time for these little whispers and things that are calling you, little steps each day, maybe even this weekend, can really blossom into something amazing. And I think for many of us, The test is oftentimes slowing down and paying attention. That's the test. The test is not, can you get that next level of accomplishment, that next title, that next salary? Yes, that's all helpful to you as a human potentially, but the test is really, are you listening to what is calling you and are you leaning into things that are aligned with your natural gifts?

John: Thank you so much for sharing that. And one more thing, what's one resource that you feel like you cannot live without? Could be something really simple, but something that may help our listeners depending on where they are.

JJ DiGeronimo: Yeah, it's super simple for me. It's audibles. I listen to inspirational books. I listen to books of wisdom, books of insight all the time. That is my go-to. That's how I use my phone outside of the calls I have to do. It really is an education device for me. And you will see in much of my work, I talk a lot about where's your energy and where's your frequency and are you aligned to the frequency you wanna attract? And for me, I have to invest in myself on a regular basis. And I do that oftentimes with books, podcasts like yours, and different YouTube videos. And this is when I'm listening to when I'm not working, when I'm doing mindless tasks, really working to keep my energy high so that I can be as impactful as possible.

Tony: Wow. Thank you, JJ, for sharing who you are and sharing your light with the world. You've definitely been an inspiration this morning.

John: Yeah, we really appreciate you. Now, in what ways can our listeners connect with you? What would you like to share anything that you have coming up? What would you like to share with them?

JJ DiGeronimo: Well, we have all the links below, so you can click on any of those. I feel like if this has resonated with you and you're trying to dig through your self-doubt, or you're trying to figure out what your whispers are, my new book, Seeking, is really the playbook to do that. But I would encourage you not to just look up Seeking, because you'll end up on a dating site. So you'll want to put Seeking, maybe the number 74, because there's 74 key findings, and even the initials JJ, and you will find it on most platforms.

John: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much again for sharing your light with us, for sharing your story and listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in, for being a part of the present professional community. Like JJ mentioned, we'll have all the links for you to access the books and everything below. So feel free to connect with us. Let us know your thoughts. And again, thank you so much for being listeners. We will see you next time. Take care.