056 - Is It Your Job or Is It You? Defining Success and Navigating Career Transitions with Career Coach Julia Rock

John:
You're listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development. To change your experience of life and work with every episode.


Tony:
So tune in, grab your notebook, and let's go. Let's go.


John:
Welcome to another episode of The Present Professional. Today, we have a special guest with us that we're so excited to share with you all, Julia Rock. She is an employment expert and career coach who's passionate about transforming workplace dynamics to create collective success between organizations and their employees. Now, all of that expertise, we're going to shift toward looking at whether it's your job, or is it you? Now, don't see this as an attack. We're going to be talking about different ways to engage with your job, your workplace and your career, like to grow in your career as well as enjoying the ride along the way and understanding when maybe that's not the right place for you. So Julia is a certified professional resume writer and employment interview professional. So she's also published two books so co-authored for the six-figure athlete and athlete to entrepreneur. So books focused on helping athletes achieve greatness after sports. So taking her passion and combining it with her expertise. We're so excited to have her on today and I want to hand it over to Julia to say anything that I missed here and make sure that you guys know exactly what she's bringing to the table. So welcome, Julia. We're so glad to have you on the further conversation.


Julia:
Thank you so much, John. I'm excited to be here. I feel like it's been a while since we connected, so glad to be here and to be on the platform with you. But just to add a little bit more, so I'm the head career coach and CEO at Rock Career Development, and we really focus on two things. One, helping athletes and professionals in transition to find their next career play. And also, we engage with workplaces to help them create safer cultures for their employees and for their leaders. So really trying to create that mutual success you were discussing, really doing that through workshops and speaking engagements. So I've been in the career coaching space for almost 20 years now. And over time, I've realized that there's only so much you can do on the employee side. You also have to be on the workplace side to actually transform the cultures that all these employees are trying to get to get into. So. Just wanted to add a little bit more.


Tony:
Beautiful. I'm so intrigued and have so many questions. I think my first question I wonder is why sports? Why connect athletes to these opportunities? What was the driving force for your decision there?


Julia:
Yeah, so so actually, it kind of fell into my lap, as it were. So I was coaching professionals for a really long time. And I actually had a client whose brother was a professional athlete, and he was playing over in Asia, and his career was coming to an end. And so he was coming back to the US and And he didn't necessarily have a ton of endorsements and all those things that would have a huge financial cushion for him. And so we had to so he had to find a role. And so she asked me, she's like, hey, I don't know if coaching athletes is your thing, but would you be willing to help my brother find a new job? And I said, I'll give it a go, right? I'm a career coach. I'm going to lock in and see what we can do. And I was able to help him find a role and help him get prepared for entering the workforce. And we celebrated that. But then I had a moment to myself where I said, wait, he can't be the only athlete who's going through this, right? For professionals, you've been in the workspace. You kind of have a sense of how to interview, how to speak professionally, et cetera. But for athletes, if all your life has been sports, now trying to get a day job, it's something completely different. And so I realized there was a need in the marketplace. And plus, I'm a basketball fan. So.


Tony:
Awesome. I knew I knew you had to be a fan of some sort. Awesome. We'll talk offline about basketball.


John:
I knew I knew that was striking a chord with you, Tony. No, for sure. Thinking about this. topic here and you know whether it's whether it's your job or it's you and I hear a lot of folks looking for solutions outside of themselves and looking for leaders to fix what's happening in their roles and you know a lot of times for example in the burnout to balance training that I lead a lot I come to it from the perspective of the employee taking agency over finding balance in their life, right? As opposed to strategies to overcome stress when the burnout's occurring, take more of a preemptive approach to say, you know, what are you doing to make sure that you're spending energy on the things that you value? And I feel like that approach can be helpful for all aspects of your career, because when you're seeing folks disengage, when they're coming to you with these complaints and looking for one of those grass is greener type of opportunities, like I'm just fed up with where I'm at. How do you approach that before and help people understand whether it's really the job or it's them?


Julia:
Yeah. And so I'm so glad that you talked a little bit about taking agency because it's, if your workplace isn't working for you, quit, right? Like that's, that's a lot of the, the, the rhetoric out there, right? It's like, just quit today, leap. Right. But it's, the question is how much have you done on your own side to say, am I doing all that I can when it comes to approaching this And so, you know, I have a TEDx talk that'll be coming out in the next week or two, where I talk a little bit about the hidden factors that are blocking employee engagement, and it's all about internal work. So are you putting too much pressure on yourself when it comes to your role, right? So are you doing any sort of self-evaluation to figure out, you know, why am I feeling this way? That's the first question when I'm talking to my clients. It's like, why are you feeling this way? Give me some examples. Oh, well, I'm overwhelmed. I have too much stuff on my desk. I'm just going to quit. Well, it's like, well, OK, well, you have too much stuff on your desk. How did we how did we get here? Right. So where did the work come from? You know, where is the pressure coming from? Have you tried to strike the balance between, hey, I have all these deliverables, but I need to have this balance in my life. And so when it comes to really approaching it with my clients, it's about how did we get here? And, you know, why are you feeling this way? because it may not be the job. It may be that you're putting your own pressure on yourself. You're an overly perfectionist, right? You're setting the wrong expectations for yourself. You haven't delegated. It could be a long list of things. And so before we get into any sort of strategies, it's about, let's unpack why you're feeling this way. And sometimes when I talk with my clients, it becomes clearer that Well, part of this is my own doing. Part of this is all happening in my head. No one's actually given me this deadline to begin with. I've just artificially put something here, and now I've got anxiety about something I did to myself. So it really starts with that why first.


Tony:
Wow. Super powerful. And that evoking awareness is always a key, right? To any coaching opportunity. And I wonder specifically back to the athlete, I think I'm just so intrigued again. What's the difference that you've seen in your clients prior to athletes now when you have athletes that are likely to be more competitive, likely to come into an environment where they're used to performing at a high level. Do you see any difference in their approach to deciding whether or not it's them or the job?


Julia:
So what I have seen sometimes is that it's the situation you just mentioned. When you're used to performing at a high level and then you're getting into a job and you're not the expert, right? You're not playing at an elite level. Let's just use the sports term. You're not playing at an elite level. You're now starting from ground zero. There's some adjustment that still has to happen. So they do have the competitive nature to get in there to learn, they're coachable. But sometimes you may be feeling like, hey, I'm not doing well, something is wrong. And it's like, hey, you're just getting up to speed, you've got to give yourself some grace. And it's hard sometimes for athletes to give themselves that grace, because you're used to practicing, you're used to executing, you're used to playing well, winning games, etc. And you have this regimen that you're used to. when you get into the workforce, it's not the exact same regimen and it's going to take you some time to get up that learning curve. And I find sometimes they're beating themselves up a little bit more or there's anxiety that's building up because they feel like I'm not getting it done. And it's like, you are getting it done. You will become the expert, but it takes some time to get there.


John:
mean that was that was advice for I mean you take remove athlete from that sentence and you know that's advice that everyone can take on right and when you're stepping into anything new whether it's a new a new role a new growth edge a new part of the organization you're unfamiliar with new boss, new team. It's like, can you give yourself some grace to overcome the learning curve? I think is really the, you know, the overall theme for anyone listening to this.


Julia:
Absolutely. Absolutely.


John:
Now, when folks come to you and saying, you know, I'm, I'm ready for, I'm ready for a new role. I'm fed up with where I'm at. You mentioned a lot of things that you look at first. And I feel like, you know, we could take a whole episode unpacking each of them. but mentioning what are the pressures that you're under and then looking internally to see how you're striking the balance and in what ways are you creating this on your own. So how did you get here and why? So say one of our, let's say one of our listeners is here right now and thinking I'm just, you know, I'm fed up. I'm burnout. I'm, I'm ready. I'm ready to look externally. How would you suggest that they start that process of looking internally to see what factors are really their own?


Julia:
Yeah, that's that's such a great question, because I feel like when you get out of that or you get in that misalignment, it's because your values are now slightly different than maybe what they used to be. So one of the biggest questions I ask my my clients is what does success actually look like to you? So because when it comes to success, it may have looked like something when you first started your career five, 10, 15, 20 years ago. And now fast forward, it may look like something different and you're still trying to keep up with that old mentality. And it's like, but you don't even want that anymore. You're running this race that you don't even want to be a part of. So that's one of the biggest questions is what does success look like to you now? And what are your values when it comes to your career and your personal life? What are your values? because they now may be out of alignment with what the corporation that you're working for, or organization, you know, it may be out of alignment. And so now's the time to ask yourself if they don't value, you know, work-life balance is something that's important to you and this is kind of a grind mill, then you know that that's not really the same setting that you're okay in versus maybe a few years ago when you were maybe single, 25, living your best life and you could be in the office at all hours. Now you may be older and it's like, I've got kids. I've got, you know, I've got other responsibilities. And so really thinking about what success looks like to you and really unpacking those values, it then takes a lot of that self-reflection and internal work. And then thinking about, am I able to use the skills that I want to use, right? So when you first started in your career, maybe you were super analytical into spreadsheets and all the things, right? You could sit there for hours and tinker. But perhaps you've shifted into a space now where you're more strategic minded or you want to use a different set of skills, but the job you're in is still asking you to tap into something that you've kind of moved past or you no longer want to do. So it's really starting to triangulate those things to help start to do that internal work.


Tony:
Wow. I'm sure that had to resonate with somebody who's listening to this podcast right now because you painted such a clear picture, Julia. Thank you.


Julia:
Thank you, yeah. When it comes to internal work, I think we get so in the clouds and get so philosophical with it instead of trying to stitch it down to these one, two or three things that I need to look at. You don't have to read a thousand books and listen to a thousand podcasts to start doing that internal work. It's like, what do I want? What's valuable to me? And am I using the skills that I want to use?


John:
I would say, yes, I agree that you don't need to look so much externally books, podcasts, all that. It's but then when you're taking the time to even answer those simple yet profound questions of what do I value? What skills do I want to use now? And like, I really want to emphasize what you said about now. You are not the same employee as you were five years ago. You're not the same. You're not the same parent, friend. We are ever changing. So I love that point of checking in with who you are now. And I think one thing that you do need, though, is to pause is to take quiet time to be able to really sit down and answer these questions. Right. So how does this actually show up for your clients? Do you have them start journaling or is it in session where they're starting to unpack some of these three things that you mentioned?


Julia:
Sure. So, so some of it happens in the session and then there's some what I call homework that they have to do on their own. And so what we talk about when they're doing the homework is don't try to multitask while you're doing this. Right. And, you know, take the time to sit and go through it. And sometimes I push my clients because I'll get the responses back for the homework. And there's these super high level superficial answers. And it's like, We both know you didn't go deep with this, so let's go back and do it again, right? And sometimes in the session, we talk about why they felt like, hey, this is where they had to stop. And so it's in session, then the homework, we come back again. And then typically the second time around, for those who kind of kept it surface, we've gotten a little bit deeper because they better understand This is for me, right? The homework isn't for the coach, right? The homework is for you. And you taking that time to pause, to not try to multitask, eat, drive, and try to do the homework. When you take that time, you get some enlightenment for yourself personally. Man, I hadn't thought about that before. Or, you know, I really have changed. But you don't, when you're on the go, you never take time to think about how different of a person you've become. It's just like, I've got to get things done. I've got to hustle. I've got a life to lead. But when you sit down in a corner by yourself or at your desk or, you know, wherever is your thinking space, so much, you know, and you're listening to the inner voice, so much becomes, you know, comes up for you. And so that's typically the process. Start in session and then they go and do the homework.


Tony:
So Julia, what advice do you have for the people who are listening to this and they've never experienced a coaching session, they've never had this awakening to say, you know what, I am at a crossroads in my career, but you know, I'm still a little skeptical. Do you have any advice for them to start where they are?


Julia:
Absolutely. So my first recommendation would be, how do you feel at work every day? Start there, right? If you have to get up in the morning and let's say you're going back into the office, how do you feel when you're going through that morning ritual? Are you experiencing a feeling of dread, terror, apathy, or are you feeling more motivated? No, we're not all high-fiving and super excited every day of the week, you know, let's be realistic. But, you know, are you feeling motivated or are you feeling apathetic or feeling dread? How do you feel when you get into the office? So just to quickly share, you know, I'm someone who went through depression because of what I was experiencing at work. And so I knew what it was like to sit in the car and physically just not want to get out because of how I felt about going into that workplace. And so that's the first thing I would say is check in right where you are and also have a conversation with your manager. Sometimes we feel like the sky is falling, the building's on fire, I'm failing at everything, and it's all in our heads. And so have you ever had a conversation with your manager to assess how are things going? Is my performance where it needs to be? Do you feel like I'm balancing everything I should? Having an open and candid discussion with your manager is another opportunity for you to get some additional feedback versus everything that's happening in your head. So those are two things I would say to get started with kind of right where you are today.


Tony:
Thank you. It's perfect.


John:
I love that. Just that tagline, just getting getting the conversation outside of your head. Right? Even if you don't start with your manager, although that is a great place to receive all of the feedback you need to understand where you stand, but then getting the conversation out of your head to speak with a mentor, to speak with a friend. If, if it's no, I want to denote something there. Do you have a friend that's an honest mirror? or a yeah right or tell me what or tell me what I want to hear type of mirror right so I would look for a friend or someone you can share with that can be honest with you and know they can actually share their perspective that to help you gain more insight now starting this process of looking internally I love what you said about not multitasking when you're doing this, like really sitting down to take the time. And I think about my own life and career, and I had a major pause. And I always say that when I started yoga teacher training was when I started to think, what do I really want to do? Where do I really want to go with my life? And I wouldn't say that was a byproduct of the training itself. I think the training was access for me to stop running through my career and just knocking out challenges ahead of me and going in a pathway that was laid out for me by by management and by the organization. And I just never took a moment to sit down and pick my head up and think, what do I really want? You know, I have agency over here to think about the next steps in my career and what really interests me. So I can't, I just can't emphasize enough, even personally, how important it is to take a pause and go away for a weekend, you know, lock yourself, lock yourself in your room with your journal in front of you and just write just it. It's so important. So important. Even personally, I had to reiterate that.


Julia:
Yeah, and I think we forget that we are the CEOs of our careers, right? I think we forget that, right? We feel like someone else, you know, they can put the pieces in place for us to get to where we want to be. But we are the architect when it comes to our careers. Sure, we need other people to help line things up for us in those environments. But at the end of the day, it's about what you want and where you want to be and you making the moves that are best for your career. You don't have to stay obligated to an environment just because you've been there 20 years. And if I leave now, it's going to look bad. Right. Or, you know, I can't do something else because this is all I've done. But the fact is, it's all about you. You are the architect. And so when you take that time to pause, and so what I've told my clients sometimes as well is that, especially if they're in therapy as well, take the time after those therapy sessions as well to think about what has come up for them and from their own mindset, thinking, what is important to me? What are my values? This is all about me. No one else has to orchestrate this. And I think when you start to take that agency and get that confidence that it's not for somebody else to do, I own this. When you take ownership, you feel so much more empowered to do things, to create things, and to create your career.


John:
Thanks. Being the architect, I almost feel like if you're not being the architect, that can be a source of where this discomfort, this disengagement is coming from. Because if you're not being the architect of your career, someone else or a system is the architect of your career. Now, if you don't want to fall subject to the will and wishes of others, And that doesn't mean you can't follow someone or follow an organization and follow rules and processes and enjoy that. That can be a part of really effective leadership and growth, to understand how that works. Yet, you do that by your choice, by your agency. Am I choosing to fall in line with the way that we do things here? Right that you always have a choice in that So again, if you're not being the architect of your career if you're not choosing what's next for you and where you want to put your focus someone else is choosing that for you and you know, if you think about it as a you know as a as a business owner as you know, do you want you want your employees to always have this agency and choice and wanting to Go in all these different directions in your career It's like, yes, you know, I want that ambition and I would love to have that entrepreneurial mindset. And there's going to be some organizations where they really enjoy people that just fall in line. Right. And you can fall subject to that if you're not being the architect of your career. So I love that you brought that up. I wanted to just hammer that home again.


Julia:
And can I sneak one more thing in here? Please. I think what I have seen is there is this mindset about, oh, we're family in the workplace. Right. And we're family and we're so tight. And it's just like brothers and sisters here. And sometimes that can create the feeling of obligation and over loyalty, if I call that. Right. And so, you know, you feel like I can't leave or I have to just trust the system or just go along with things because we're a family environment. And it's like you have to keep in mind whether or not that that's what other people think. You have to remember that even if it's a family, you still have agency over what you want to do. You don't have to follow the crowd. And perhaps that puts you at odds and maybe it's not the right environment for you. But don't let that family mindset, you know, rob you of the agency and the empowerment when it comes to your career.


Tony:
Yeah, that's a very dangerous, slippery slope there. I agree. I had a question for you. I was thinking about back to your, kind of your subtitle of, is it you or is it the job? And I think about people, right? Because everywhere you go, people matter. People are always going to be a part of whether you are working in an environment or whether you're serving clients. For people that are potential clients or even listening to this podcast, what do you say about the people that they work with? Is it ever sometimes the people and not the job? And if it is the people, what do they do about a situation like that where they love what they do technically, right? They love the work that they produce, but it's the people. It's the people that they work with. What do you say to that?


Julia:
Yeah, so I think it's a couple of things. I think it depends on the degree, right? So is it that you have one coworker that's unbearable or is it the collection or is it the team? Because that's a leadership problem, right? If the entire team or division is questionable, let's just use that term, right? If they're questionable, that means it's now stitched into the culture due to leadership. And so the question is, is there another department that perhaps has a different leadership style that maybe you can shift to? Or if you feel like it's at a higher level of leadership, then you may be looking elsewhere to see if you can do the same type of work. because you can't change everybody. But if you have if it's just one questionable coworker, right, then it's like, OK, can we shift my work scope? Can I get onto a different project? Can I work under another supervisor in an adjacent department so I don't have to be near this individual because it's not working well for me? But if it's truly a group of people, that means it's really more ingrained in the culture and coming down from a leadership perspective. And it may mean, one, a totally different department or a totally different organization where you're doing similar work. And that's part of the process that I go through with my clients is thinking about what is your skillset? Is it marketable? Is it something that we can find in another organization? Or if it's truly niche, is it just one place that's doing this thing? Or if it's something that's more broad on the marketplace where there's demand for it, because then you can find another home for your career.


Tony:
Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's a perfect answer. And yeah, it is a leadership problem a lot of times, because if your leader is allowing it and you've gone through the steps to report and do what you need to do and it's still being allowed, then yeah, it starts at the top.


Julia:
And that report thing is a whole other conversation because we've all learned that HR, especially if you're going to HR, no tea or shade to the HR listeners, but the fact is sometimes when you go to HR, they're trying to find that balance because they represent the company's best interest. Right. And so, you know, for just being candid. And so it depends on who you can have that conversation with. And so it goes back to something John said earlier about mentors. I can't stress this enough. If you are an organization, do your best to make sure you're finding mentors and sponsors, people who have the juice to make things happen for you, because moving into that different department may be easier if you have someone who can speak up on your behalf in a room that you can't even get into. Right. And then having a mentor, someone that you can bounce ideas off of or how to approach a situation with a questionable coworker or a leader that's allowing bad behavior because the move may not be instantaneous for you. So you may have to navigate that for a period of time. And so having a mentor who can provide you with that advice is also really, really critical.


John:
I feel like the leadership problem and understanding that this division, this organization isn't aligned with the values that I hold and the skills that I want to use today and or. I feel like that's a natural transition to, okay, you've determined that. And now what? Now, how do I mindfully approach a career transition? But before we get there, I want to ask, is there anything that we've that we've left out that you want to let the listener know about that first internal work, that first question of is it the job or is it me?


Julia:
The one thing I will say is you have to give some allowance for bad days, right? If you've had a bad day, this doesn't mean quit today, right? And so again, there's a lot of advice out there about just go quit and forgetting that people have lives and they're giving up their benefits programs, you know, just to quit on a whim. And so I would really encourage folks to, if you had a bad day, take some time, take a mental health day, take some time to evaluate, okay, how do I feel? Was that just a blow up in the moment or is this more something systemic? And this was the straw that broke the camel's back. There's a difference between one bad day and then the bad day that kind of culminates or the culmination of everything. And so that's the one last piece that I would share is that make sure that you're not making knee jerk reactions just because something bad happened today. So see if you can make that distinction between the culmination of everything, or if this was just a, I'm frustrated today, I need a break, right? I need to go have a margarita and relax, right?


Tony:
You know, and real quick, I want to double down on that because if you don't do the internal work, then all you're going to do is just take this energy that you have into the next place. And that's not going to fix anything. It probably could be worse because you'll take this to a new environment with new people, and then you still got this cloud over your head. And then next thing you know, you're right back across from Julia. So I just want to double down on that internal work.


Julia:
Absolutely. And if I can just add to that really quickly, you know, that's one of the questions I ask is, why do you want to make this transition? Career transitions are not a piece of cake. They take time, they take energy, they take investment. And so my first question is, why do you want to make this transition? Because if it's like, well, my boss got on my nerves, it's like, well, is that truly a reason to transition? Or is it just that you need to to recalibrate, have a discussion, escalate concerns? So the first question is why? Because sometimes it may not be as robust of a reason as you might think initially.


John:
So now we've covered all of our bases. We're at the point of it's time to mindfully transition my career. What's the first step that your clients take?


Julia:
Yeah, so when they first come to me, it starts back at that clarity we were discussing before. So we ask the question as to why you want to transition. And then we get into an assessment about who you are. So it's not just because too often we're thinking about the job, the job, the job. But again, to Tony's point, if you're taking those bad vibes with you to the next place, you're not really fixing anything. So the first question is, who are you? So taking a step back from job titles, from education, from years of experience, really thinking about who you are and what do you want to be known for, what are your values, all of those questions. So we go through an assessment. of that so that people have a chance to see who they are independent of work, because that will help you in terms of placing yourself somewhere. Because if you're just thinking about, well, I'm a project manager, so that means you're putting your pigeonholing yourself into, I've got to go get a project management job now. And it's like, well, you've been doing project management. You don't like it anymore. Why are you going to keep doing it? So the question is, who are you outside of this? And sometimes I get into some exploration questions about when you were a child, what were you thinking success would be like when you grew up? What did you want to do? And I don't just get stuck on what those careers were. It's like, what was it about those careers that interested you? Was it that you wanted to help people? Was it that you wanted to work in sports and be with your favorite athletes, for example? So what was it about those things and how do they translate to where you are today? Do you still want to help people? It might not be the case, right? And so it really comes down to starting with the who you are work so that you're not attaching your value or you're not attaching your identity to work. Otherwise, the transition can't be successful because you're always going to be tying yourself to, well, I'm this, or I have this title. And it's like, well, think about yourself independent of that.


John:
Wow. I have a couple questions to add to that. There's in these like self-exploration type questions that I do with my clients that I love is another one is, you know, what, what would you do if you knew you cannot fail, then you had unlimited resources, like open up that conversation to just eliminate fear and failure. and to see what elements of that can I realistically pull into their next move or into the transition to what they're looking for, right? And then another one that I really love is the who are the people you admire and why is it starts getting into where they can look externally for factors and qualities things that they admire about other people's journeys and then turn it back on them. And I'll ask, you know, so what qualities that you just described, do you feel are reflected in yourself? Right. Just kind of changing that perspective for people.


Julia:
And one of the things that I also ask as well is, what is it that people come to you for? And it's not just with work, right? So in your personal life, your friends, your family, what is it that people come to you for? And I ask it in both ways. What do you enjoy talking to them about? And what would you rather they found anyone else? Find a paper bag if you have to, just... Just leave me out of it. Because sometimes we feel obliged to continue to help our families and so forth, but these are things that we just dread them coming to us to talk about. And I think that that also leans a little bit into the qualities and the skills and the talents that you want to use versus those that you would rather not. So if people have seen you as the project manager, you're just like, God, I don't want to do that anymore. And everyone keeps coming to you with, How do I approach this thing? How do I schedule this or do this event or this project? And you're just like, I wish they would stop asking me. It really helps you to really unpack that, hey, these are the skills that I would rather not use again. And so when I think about where I want to go, you can have a more narrow focus.


Tony:
Mm-hmm. And Julia, you're making me think about back to that internal work piece and just how important it is for someone who may have never started to go down the path of self-awareness or even emotional intelligence to uncover things that they're now seeing in themselves and then saying, maybe it's me, you know, maybe it isn't the job. Can you touch on something you mentioned a little while ago as we were transitioning? You talked about the investment of a career change, the lack of benefits, the scarcity that could happen as you make this transition and all those things that you could lose in the process as compared to maybe just changing your attitude and behavior within your workplace to make it work if you actually could. Can you touch on that a little bit more about what that transition really looks like in real life?


Julia:
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of investment mentally, physically, financially when it comes to a transition. Because what I've seen for some clients, depending on what they've had, you know, it may be difficult for them to stay in the workplace where they are, right? And so they have to leave. And so now they're without benefits, now they're without financial support. So the idea is you have to take that time to figure out, is this something that I can do right now? When you have a family, you have people that are depending on you, you have to think about, is this something I can do? For some of those clients, they have to do it because the environment is toxic and they need to transition. But if that's not you, and the question is, hey, is it that I need to just approach this work differently? That may be the choice to make. In addition to the lack of finances that you may have, if you don't have the right skillset when it comes to making that transition, you then have to invest in a coach, like myself, for example. And some clients, they do come because they know that they need it. But then it's like, you're now tapping into those financial resources, the scarce ones you already have, to try to make sure that you have the right strategies. And of course, for the most part, you're able to find success on the other end. But again, that's an upfront, scary investment because you don't know what's going to pan out, how soon it's going to pan out. And then there's the mental taxing of this. Because when you're going through a transition, you're thinking about, am I starting over? What does this mean? You know, how do I gain traction again? Am I going to even feel better in this environment? So there's a lot of like mental, I guess, mental capital that you're using when it comes to this. And then it's just time. When you're going after a transition, you have to put in the time to do the internal work we discussed, to work through the strategies, to action the strategies that have been shared with you and the action plan that has been put forward. So there's also time investment. So when it comes to a transition, that's why I go back to the question, why do you want to do this? Because it can be very, very intense and you have to be committed to the process. And so if it's just a bad day, you might want to pass on putting in all this effort.


Tony:
Right.


John:
In series. And the mental capital that you mentioned, we were talking about the self-exploration process as part of the career transition. And if you're low on mental capital and energy and time, you're not going to do its full service to really sit down and go through this self-exploration process if your mind is living outside of yourself and looking externally. If you're using a lot of that mental capital about thinking how to make ends meet and what's happening right now, you're not going to be in the right headspace to do some of this self-exploration to pull out all of these qualities and components of your ideal career and how you want to move forward. So I think that was a great point to emphasize. And so we talked about this self-exploration process, the questions that We take clients through to pull out the components of their ideal career, their next move. So now they've sat down, they've done this work, they've determined what they valued. They've pulled out all the skills that they want to use. The things from childhood people that you admire, you go through this whole process and now you're at the place of refining and getting it and actually starting the process to look for that the reflection of that, the reflection of who you are and the skills you want to use in your next role, how do they start that process?


Julia:
And the way that I would actually approach that is like, okay, you've done that self work. So you've done the internal work. Now it's time to do the external work, right? So now how do we find the organizations and the people that reflect that? So part of that is one, if you already have mentors or individuals that may not be from your former workplace, but people that you trust, and people that may be industry professionals. Because too often, I feel like we're just doing online research, right? We're Googling ourselves to death and you're just getting what's on the page. And so it's so important that once you've done this work, that you talk to people who are experienced and have real conversations and say, hey, this is the work that I've done. This is the transition I'm looking to make, and this is where I think I want to go based on that. What are your thoughts? Give me some context and what have you. And these folks can give you some really good opinions to say, hey, that's a great idea. I think that this would be a really good fit for such and such career. Or say, hey, that's really niche. Let's maybe try to broaden the scope a little bit because what I have found with some of my clients is that they want to also get paid well, but they find this really niche nonprofit thing. And it's like, okay, that sounds great. We want to save the whales, but let's think about how we shift that into a role that you can actually get paid for. Because part of that engagement and fulfillment at work, if you're feeling like you're undercompensated, that accelerates how disengaged you are. Because when you're not able to pay bills, you're not able to travel, you're not able to do things with your family, it's like, gosh, why am I even going to work for? And so part of that is getting some real candid advice from folks in the industry and mentors that you have. And then also doing that work of looking at the various companies or organizations that may have opportunities that are in line with that. So thinking about the skill sets you want to use or the industries you want to be part of. If it's fashion, for example, let's say you were working in one place and now you want to be in fashion. Are there companies that you have followed, that you have interacted with in your personal life that it's like, hey, this may be a place that I now want to look at professionally? So I think there's a couple of different angles that you can approach it to say, OK, now that I know what I want, let me talk to people, get some real feedback, and then do some actual research with the organizations and people that may actually be in those positions as well.


John:
Hmm. So that's the beginning of the search. And I love that you started with nurturing your network and expanding your network because you're going to get the most realistic information for what it's going to be like in that transition and working there. by actually hearing from someone that's there or that's been there. Right. So that's super important. I feel the really important place to start. So now you determine. So say now you've done your research, you've determined a couple of places that look like would be a good fit. You've started making those having those conversations. Maybe there's a couple job descriptions or jobs out there. So then what's the process to start putting pen to paper and actually going after some of these opportunities?


Julia:
So one of the big things that I talk to my clients about is building a personal brand, right? Especially, so let's go back to our project manager example. If you've been a project manager for the past 10 years, and it's like now we're going from project manager to sales, for example. Now you have to think about how do I represent that brand now? So it's not just about putting applications in, but how do I change my whole persona? to really make sure that that's that sales is what's coming forward. So we think about how do we package that, whether it's with your LinkedIn profile, whether it's with the website that you have, whether it's even, you know, your resume, your cover letter, and then even how you approach conversations with the folks in your network, because it may have been that, you know, the folks in your network, they knew you for project management, and they could, you know, queue you up for those roles. But then going back to your network and saying, Once you've gotten this defined and you look at the sales roles that you want and the companies that you want, hey, this is what I offer. This is what I'm looking for. Are there introductions that you can make on my behalf? But you have to make sure that packaging and positioning is coming across effectively. And LinkedIn is the hill that I like to die on. I tell folks that it's such a great place to position yourself and your brand, but you've got to have a clear message as to why you're making this transition. And then the key thing is making sure you're highlighting transferable skills. The biggest thing from a career transition is making sure that it doesn't come across as a, hey, I'm starting fresh. I don't know what's going on. I'm confused. It's the fact that I'm leveraging all this 10 years of project management experience where I've engaged with customers and clients and delivered on expectations. I'm now bringing that into a sales career and looking for those opportunities. So highlighting those transferable skills as you build your personal brand, whether it's online or in person, is really essential as well.


John:
Now, so you've put that all together. You're starting to build on your personal brand. I loved what you said about transferable skills. And sometimes that's a little bit of an art. It comes down to the language that you're using to describe and weaving in some of the language of the other opportunity in these other organizations and what they're looking for and spinning your experience in a way that is applicable to pieces, to core pieces of that next role, right? Maybe it's not the textbook description of the salesperson, you know, if you're looking at project manager responsibilities, yet, you know, are you taking those slight responsibilities of how you manage different stakeholders cross-functionally during a project, that's new people, that's people with vested interests, that's selling people on something, that's influencing without authority, and moving that into you know, how I can influence customers and educate them on our product, right? So how are you taking that those little nuance details and moving it into something that is sought after by that next opportunity? So now you've done that. Maybe you've landed a couple opportunities. Now, maybe you have your first interview, a couple first round interviews coming up. How do you start to take that information and at all of the work that your clients have done and prepare them for game time.


Julia:
Okay, so I'm going to let you guys in on a secret in my process, my proprietary model that I go through with my clients here. I have a three-pronged method when it comes to interview preparation for my clients. And the first piece of that is communicating your value. I actually have a model that they go through for them to craft key messages that they can bring up in their interviews. And the first message that they need to craft is their presidential message is what I call that. And essentially it's the one liner as to why you are a great fit for this role or why they should hire you. And so that helps them to think about whether it's based on the transferable skills, whether it's based on whatever it might be, what is the reason this organization should hire me? And then underneath that, we build up the messages based on the skills, based on the examples from their career, for them to have key points to share. Where most people fail in the interview is not because they didn't prep or they didn't go through their questions. It's that they fail to be able to effectively articulate their value. And so companies or the manager, the hiring manager, they walk away unclear as to why they should hire you. And so that's the very first thing that I focus on. And when it comes to those transferable skills is How do you tie those experiences that you've had in your prior career? How can you tie that to something that's happening in this new job? What they're looking for is skills. They can train you on anything. They can send you to a boot camp to get the subject matter. But those essential skills that they need to execute on day one, that's what they're looking for. So when you show in the interview that you have those transferable skills and you can give a clear example or multiple clear examples, you're more likely to have a more effective conversation with the hiring manager.


Tony:
That's it. Articulating that communication is so important.


John:
Super important. Your value. Value is something that, yes, it's intrinsic to what you believe, but then when it comes down to it, that's some of the work that you have to do in the background. is in your research trying to understand what this organization values, what a specific division values, and maybe even down to within the interview, asking enough questions to determine what that hiring manager values. Right. This is a it's an interview is a two way street. So while you get prepared to deliver all these messages, you know, you can think on your feet and ask some of the questions to get clarity to deliver a powerful answer based on what they value. And also, I believe, when I'm working with my clients, that having enough questions that are pointed to interview the company and that division about them being a good fit for those things that are non-negotiables for you. Remember all that self-exploration work that we did and the values that you want to have reflected in this culture? So what questions are you going to ask to determine whether or not this team does things like that? And you want to talk about, I want a team environment that is engaging and friendly and is very collaborative. OK, that sounds great, but how do you determine whether this team is really like that. So maybe a question like, you know, how often does your team get together for things that are not related to work? How often does your, the, the hiring manager, the, you know, the manager of the group meet with people with, for one-on-ones it's like an actual tangible question that is easy for the interviewer to respond with. that maybe can give you some more insight on that. And, you know, when I feel that a candidate knows what they want and, and the value that they can provide and like, what's a good fit for them, it almost takes some of the work off of you.


Julia:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I tell clients, approach the interview like a date, right? You're going on a date. And, you know, the person, the hiring manager is asking you all these questions because they want to see if they like you. That should be the same thing for you. It's not just whether or not they like you. It's like, do you like them? And don't be afraid to ask the questions to assess. Do I even like this person? Do I even like, do I even want to work here? And I think that that sense of empowerment brings a certain confidence to asking those questions versus just asking, what's a typical day like? You know, right. Or what's the company culture like? You don't have those kind of canned questions. when you are able to ask those more pointed questions, why is this role vacant? What are the hours like during peak periods? What are the expectations for X, Y, and Z? As you mentioned, how often do people get together? How are the roles and responsibilities set up here? What does success look like in the first 30, 60, 90 days? Because they start to tell on themselves, well, we all just roll up our sleeves and get things done, red flag. It's like, they're going to work you to death. But when you approach it as, hey, I'm going on a date, and if I don't like them, I can walk away. You don't have to take what they give you, but it's knowing that when you walk into the room, it's not just about whether they like you, it's about whether you like them as well.


Tony:
Yeah. And it's super important to communicate your values in those, in those moments. Like John said, all that self work that you did, this is your moment to shine, your moment to also hold yourself accountable to not like just jump into this job because you, you want to make this career change. No, you talk about it being a date. I think it's like a date to lead to a marriage. Cause when you working for this company, like you're going to be there, you know, a long time of your, of your week, your most productive hours. I say this on every podcast. Your most productive hours of the day spent at work. So you're going to, I mean, hey, lock in and make sure that you're marrying the right company because you don't want to be back to the divorce table saying, I need, I need to talk to Julia again because I made a mistake. Right. So I just want to make sure that people double down on it. Don't just get the interview and say, I'm going to say the right things to get the job. You will be right back in the same scenario.


Julia:
Exactly. You know, and I appreciate that comment, the fact of if you don't take the right steps up front, you're going to end up back where you didn't want to be in the first place. Right. And so, yes, we all want to celebrate getting the new job and all those things. But it's not just about a job. It's about a career. It's about a huge part of your life. Because as you said, you're spending your most productive hours at work. And this is time away from your family, your friends, your hobbies, all those things. You're spending that time away. It should be spent in a way that you see best and aligns with your values and your vision of success. But if you skip out or you forget all that internal work that you did, and then you go in there and say, OK, they're paying me $100,000. Let's lock this in. you know six months from now we're back having the conversation let's go back to the clarity work and and it's and it's and it for you it's a repetitive process and and you're not even building the skills in your career that you want to because you have to keep restarting.


Tony:
And it's more difficult. Now you got to explain your story again for the six months that you just spent.


John:
Wow. So you've got through the interview. You're into your, you know, you're into your first, your first 30 days and you've made your career transition. Any final words of advice that, you know, you give that you give people? Well, I guess upon the success of that and entering into their first 30 days.


Julia:
Yes, so the first thing I would say is see, you know, within that first 30 days of transitioning, but get a sense of if the culture is as described in the interview, right? So do you have the type of management interaction that you were promised? you know, are the meetings that were supposed to be happening, the touch points, are they happening? Do you feel like you're being treated or welcomed the way that you had, that had been discussed? Really do that assessment to see, was this a bait and switch or are they truly being genuine? That's one of the biggest things to do in your first 30 days. And then also make sure that you're setting up the boundaries that you need to early on. Part of the challenge with people getting burnt out is like, oh, I'm working all the time. I'm doing so much. But you never set any boundaries. You never blocked any time on your calendar. You never had a conversation with your manager about what your availability is. and what your principles are around being contacted after work hours, you never had that conversation. And so five years later, you're burnt to a crisp because of the fact that you never put those boundaries in place first. So those first 30 days are an opportunity for you to get on the same page with your manager, understand their expectations. but then also share your expectations. Again, it's not just the interview that's a two-way street. Your entire career and interaction with your management is a two-way street. They can't dictate to you what will or will not happen. They can share expectations. You can share your expectations. And if they truly are misaligned, you've got to figure out, is there a middle ground here or not? So I would really encourage anyone listening that if you're getting into that first 30 days of the new job and you're getting your feet under you, you know, yes, do the trainings and so forth, but really take that time to assess the environment to ensure it's not a bait and switch, but also take the time to understand what your manager's expectations are of you and communicate what your expectations or boundaries are as well.


John:
Wow, that was super helpful. And, you know, I just want to thank you for everything that you've given the listeners today and this whole conversation. I mean, we've gone through the whole gamut of you know, where you're at with your current mindset and then, you know, determining if this if this is truly not the right fit for you or not. And then the whole way to the first 30 days of the next role aligned with your ideal career. So I just wanted to say thank you there. And also, where can our listeners get in touch with you? What do you have for them?


Julia:
Oh, man. So so in terms of getting in touch with me, they can actually go to my website, rocker dot com. I actually have my career transition program called Pivot that's available that they can go in and learn more about on my website, rocker dot com. And then and then I'm actually pretty consistent all over social media at the Julia Rock on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. And then also they can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. They can just look for Julia Rock.


John:
Awesome. Awesome. Thanks so much for that. One other question. So if there's one thing that was the most, let's say the most helpful piece of advice that you were given throughout your career that you still live by today, what would that be?


Julia:
An old manager told me, if you're not making mistakes, you're not learning anything. And I have taken that to help me give myself some grace when it comes to my career and the decisions that I've made, the roles that I've been in. And it takes a lot of pressure off of me when it's like, hey, if I get into this job and it's not great at the first outset, I don't have to go run and quit. Right. It's like, you know, mistakes happen. and on things happen. And so I would encourage anyone, especially if they're getting into that learning curve or, you know, they're trying to transition and it's like, they're not sure how well things are working. If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning, you're not learning anything. So, so that I still live by that. And I think I got that advice in 2006.


John:
Wow, it's wonderful. Any final thoughts or questions, Tony?


Tony:
No, I mean, for me, I think that you said it all, you know, and I would just say and just echo your sentiments on for the people in their first 30 days. On the flip side of that, when you are assessing the company, make sure that you show up and you're locked in, you're present on being the person that you said you were going to be in the interview. Because sometimes people, just as much as you're hoping that the company is what you hoped it would be, the people are hoping that you're what you said you were. So don't just be walking around skeptical, like walk around, build relationships, you know, and just give the people a chance because maybe the grass is truly greener for you in this opportunity. So I think Julia said everything though. For sure.


John:
Of course. Of course. Yeah. Thanks again for joining us today. Listeners, you know how to get in contact with Julia. We'll also show those details in the show notes for you. Thank you guys so much for being listeners and being a part of this community is always wonderful to be back in this conversation and share these insights with you all. So welcome. Thank you for being a part of the present professional community until next time.